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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  November 8, 2013 8:00pm-9:00pm EST

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compromise known to mankind. the constitution of the united states. a couple of days after the speech, i sought confirmation from governor ridge that this was no ordinary speech. he obliged. the man who grew up in veterans public housing, went to harvard, served two terms in congress and then became the first of homeland security told me there were things he wanted to quote get off his chest about his party. google him and read the speech. it will have you wondering his age. the answer is, he's a very spry 68. all in with chris hayes starts right now. we begin with a story that has refused to go away and not because of the facts involved, but because of the concerted effort on the right to instill scandal.
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tonight, cbs news is apologizing for a story it brought on 60 minutes about the attack in b benghazi that killed four last year. using a contractor who appeared to be an eyewitness, but was not in fact where he said he was on the night in question. the so-called eyewitness did not apparently see the events he claimed to describe. >> you know, the most important thing to every person at 60 minutes is the truth. and today, the truth is that we made a mistake. and that's very disappointing for any journalist. it's very disappointing for me. nobody likes to admit they made a mistake, but if you do, you have to stand up and take responsibility and you have to say that you were wrong and in this case, we were wrong. >> the explosive charge in logan's original report was that
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there was an eyewitness account from a contractor who used the pseudonym morgan jones, who claimed the u.s. could have sent back-up to the besieged facility because he himself was able to go enter it and do battle with the bad guys. >> morgan jones scaled the 12-foot high wall of the compound still overrun with al-qaeda fighters. >> one guy saw me. he just shouted, i couldn't believe that it's him because it's so dark. he started walking towards me. >> and as he was coming closer -- >> i just hit him with the butt of the rifle in the face. >> and no one saw you? >> no. there was too much noise. >> to a benghazi scandal fire that was finally in its dying embers, the report was a gallon of gasoline. the next morning, the fox news tour began. >> cbs did this story on benghazi and i see criticism from the left.
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"60 minutes" doesn't cover phony scandals. >> if we don't have a joint committee, we're never going to get the truth and where are the survives? 14 months later, the people who survived have not been made able to the u.s. congress for oversight purposes, so i'm going to block every appointment in the united states senate until the survivors are being made available to congress. >> because of the segment, lindsey graham is going to block every appointment made by the president. on that day, on that monday, it was apparent that the so-called eyewitness may have had some questionable motives. david brock on our show that night disclosed that even fox news itself was weary of using the other source. >> and the other witness appears to be some type of british mercenary who apparently in
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conversations with fox news, asked for money to talk and so, you know, fox news even drew a line there, but it was good enough for cbs. >> turns out, cbs was also publishing davies book. the connection did not disclose during that original report. while fox news may have shied away from him because he asked for money, it didn't stop the same fox news from running over 13 segments. mainstream validation was even comically evident at a rally for the now defeated virginia candidate, ken cuccinelli, a week before tuesday's election. his warm-up acts stalking the crowd with -- including congressman frank wolf. >> the man who was going to get to the bottom of what's going to happen in benghazi. >> i appreciate that introduction and we are going to get to the bottom and if anyone watched "60 minutes" last night,
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you can see why -- >> then thursday, "the washington post" report thaging that the account in the book were different from the report he filed with his employer, but cbs stood by their story, continued to defend it, despite multiple queries. chairman and associate producer says he was proud of the program's reporting on benghazi and confident the source told accurate versions, but the bottom fell out yesterday when "the new york times" reporter that mr. davies told the fbi he was not in fact on scene until the morning after the attack. >> what we now know is that he told the fbi a different story and that was the moment for us, when we realized that we no longer had confidence in our source and that we were wrong to put him on air and we apologized to our viewers. we will apologize to our viewers and we will correct the record
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on our broadcast on sunday night. >> joining me now is bill carter, reporter for the "new york times." he wrote the story on this today. my head's spinning. how did this happen? >> well, i think it happened because cbs was looking to get a new angle on the story. they got a book and in the book, this security man claimed he was there and went tr through what they considered a betting process and decided he was credible and put him on the air. i think they needed a new angle. they really needed this guy to be truthful and they were in the middle of this situation where you know, he was saying one thing to his boss and a different thing to them, but it was a credible reason for that, because he had left his villa when he was supposed to not go to the scene and what he told was a dramatic story and that added a lot of drama to what cbs wanted to report. >> even when the issues start to
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be raised, then on thursday, there's a "washington post" report, it follows this kind of classic cycle, which is ignore, deny, double down. >> yes. and i spoke to lara logan before it blew up and she was very adamant about how credible l this guy was. >> when you talked to her? >> yes, she said she believed in what he said and didn't think he had given two versions and the fbi report would prove that. that he gave the same report to the fbi that he gave to cbs and so, that became really the critical aspect with the fbi report. corroborates it. >> two versions of the event, the report, i stayed in my villa, i wasn't there the night i said i saw these things. you have what he told the cbs cameras and the tiebreaker was what did he tell fbi, he was not there. >> they interviewed him three separate times. each occasion, he told the story the way it came out in the
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incident report. he stayed at the villa, didn't go to the scene. i spoke to cbs about that last night and they were obviously taken aback by that. they then spent the next couple of hours themgs checking with their fbi sources and by this morning, they had gotten the same report we had. >> i want to bring in eric, steven, former producer for "60 minutes." eric, well, you guys, in some ways, this is not to be uncharitable here, but i'll tell the truth. this is a little overdetermined in the case of media matters, like you guys are a liberal group. you fact check conservatives, benghazi, people might say maybe the clock stopped twice a day. you guys were right about this. >> we have been fact checking the story to death and when cbs
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decided we want to piece of that pie, that right wing media narrative, there are lingering questions when there are none. when this story has been exhaustively researched by congress. military have talked about what the reenforcement responsible was. when they decided to sort of key into that buzz machine, you talked about you know, fox news the next day for an hour. the senator talking about it. what's the number one way to know you hit a home run? the next day, a senator's talking about your story. they knew it was all predetermined. they were no lingering questions. the conflicts of interest should have stopped them. the des crepesies should have stopped them. this whole thing is a train wreck. >> i want to make clear here, steven, i don't want to like put a dagger in "60 minutes." i have tremendous admiration. in some ways, it's like a miracle it exists in television
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journalism, which i think is why all of us take it so seriously. what is it like in that building today? >> it's obviously a very, very difficult day for everyone there, but my question is how much real self-examination is is being done there. i watched lara this morning on cbs this morning and even though there was an apology, and even though it was borderline mistakes were made, i don't believe there was still an adequate explanation of just what kind of vetting really was done. at the end of the day. >> journalism 101. you have a single source. you have with -- >> most dangerous thing in the universe. >> who is a self-interested source because the source is trying to sell books. then you have a story, which is a political hot potato, which can be red meat to certainly one side of the argument and it seems to me that raises the bar and makes it more crucial that you do your due diligence and i
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didn't hear anything in the explanation of what we did to vet that leads credibility to the argument we were fooled. you shouldn't have been fooled. >> so, the piece is here is that this was basically, you see this story, you think this is going to light up the right. and it did and it's also like a box for us to check the next time we're accused of liberal media. remember, we did that benghazi story. the threshold is the imprint of simon and shuster,al l though it has now been recalled. being pulled out of -- we're trying to get video of them packing up the books. >> by the way, that's a cbs decision. >> conservative imprint that publishes books by glenn beck, sarah palin. i mean, that's the world this story is coming out of. those are some red flags.
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>> they wants to key into it. there's an automatic audience there, but when you're going to wade into that, you have to be careful. you cannot stain your reputation just because you want to sort of fuel this. one other quick point. after the national guard story, you know, 2004, "60 minutes," their last real huge embarrassment, they appointed a panel. did lots of interviews, hired lots of lawyers. >> i want to talk about that. famously dan rathers producer on the story of the national guard documents, forged documents about president bush's record in the national guard. had this to say, the story is done to appeal to more conservative audiences. they appear to have done the story to appeal to conservative audiences. you can't avoid the parallels here, bill. >> you can't avoid them because everybody's going to think oift
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of it. but to me, this is a far lesser scandal because i don't see this as, people aren't doing this sort of in a presidential election, trying to influence voting. i think, i may be wrong, but i think people have to step back and say, look, there's a lot of agendas being played out here. you're saying cbs wanted to court the writer. but my sense is they weren't wanting to do something on benghazi, spent a lot of time, then this guy's book showed up. >> it was a mini perfect storm. they needed to inject a big b12 shot into that benghazi story. one of the things we try to tell some of our students is how to watch television and be aware this that fellow's story, had nothing. i mean, in essence, had nothing to do with the same old story they were telling in the rest of the piece. this was a little bit of smoke and mirrors.
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let's inject a dramatic, heroic story. >> i want to say one thing. getting involved in this, you then see the impact. because the state department didn't like this at all. they kind of went after this guy. they wanted to go after and so, reporting on this is a mind -- what does have to happen, or just do diligence and put up what appears to be a fabricator and put the credibility of the cbs news on the line. thank you, all, really. coming up, this is the city of pasadena's website. said here, we have the kind of community, culture and responsiveness attracting attention. they are for one thing related to their government. their effort to suppress the latino vote. why a texas ballot initiative
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was the most important election of the week you haven't heard about, coming up.
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earlier this year, the supreme court voting rights. led by a 5-4 vote, it suspended the important, crucial section 5. nine states would be free the change their election laws without getting preclearance approval from the federal government. we've been talking for months about the potential of this decision and this week, we saw it play out in dramatic fashion on election day in one city in texas. pasadena, texas. a suburb of houston, sometimes calling stinkadina for the stink of its oil refineries. the setting, the iconic fill k, urban cowboy. >> cowboy? ♪ >> depends on what you think a real cowboy is. >> but like a lot of texas
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towns, pasadena has changed radically since the days john travolta walked the streets in a ten gallon hat. >> a not so small city. >> the changes come in the last ten years thanks to growth in the hispanic population, which has risen to 68%, making white people a minority in the new pasadena. luckily for them, they are still a majority of the voting population. while the hispanic population accounts for a majority of pasadena residents, hispanics make up only 32% of the city's voters, but the people who are running pasadena see the writing on the wall. they know there are only a few voter registration drives and maybe a bill away from being relegated to minority status. so, this summer, pasadena mayor
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johnny isabel came up with a plan. right now, the city is run by eight council members. and for the first time in the city's history, there are now two hispanics on the counsel. one is cody wheeler. >> we kind of came in there, looking to bring change, reform, to really engage in the community and we've called the mayor out on a lot of things we thought weren't very honest. >> in august, he started pushing a plan to shrink the number of districts and replace those two with at large seats to be voted on by everyone in pasadena, and by everyone, we mean the town's white voting majority. >> he decided to make a full power grab and he didn't care who you'd have to step over to get it. >> to the community, the goal of the plan was clear. i think what he's trying to do is sttrying to stop us from bei able to get the things we need and be able to be the majority. he doesn't like it.
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>> dilute the power of the hispanic vote and hand two seats to the population. ensure the population could band together and retain their power. >> what this effectively does is give the south part of town the majority of counsel. >> it turns out this is precisely the sort of thing section five of the voting rights act was designed to block. in fact, ruth bader ginsburg cited this precise type of discrimination from a pre section five world when a voting rights act came before the court this year. >> these second generation barriers included racial gerrymandering, switching to at large voting. >> it's the oldest trick in the book and so recognizable that when a neighboring texas town of beaumont cooked up a similar plan, it was blocked by the justice department in december of 2012.
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but then, the supreme court killed section five of the voting rights act in shelby v. holder and isbel made his move. >> he said we're going to redirt the city. >> the justice department can no longer tell us what to do. >> so, this summer, isbill arguing some don't care about city wide issues, moved to put his own plan on the ballot. >> the mayor's quite aware of what this does, but he just seems to not care. >> on tuesday, the folks of pasadena went to vote on proposition one and the majority won by a margin of 87 votes. now that section five is dead, there are thousands of potential pasadenas all across the south. we should note that patricia gonzalez who we spoke to in that report is a rez dment that
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community, also activist. joining me now, julie fernandez. a senior policy analyst at the open society foundations. you used to work at a desk, getting applications from places that wanted to do changes like this. how common or anomalous is the story of pas dadena? >> well, i think change to the method of election are actually the second most common type of voting change. that drew objections during the days of section five, so they were ones that often got a lot of scrutiny because you have to ask the question why and assess the impact in the way your piece describeded. >> i think what's interesting about this story, a, the shelby county case that came before the court that initiated the court striking down was actually a change to the gerrymandering of a district of a relatively small town and what i think is interesting is we talk about voter i.d. and stuff happening at the state level.
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there is a lot of stuff that happens at the municipal level and when the stakes are high, property taxes, school equity, things like that that we don't necessarily see from the national level. >> that's part of what we lost here when we lost section five. the ability to know about this stuff. everybody's going to know about statewide redistricting, statewide law changes. places like pasadena, texas, clara, alabama, shelby county, they're going to be doing things to manipulate late the system, define who the electorate is, that has a significant minority impact and we're just not going to know about it because we don't have section five. >> they range from alabama, alaska, georgia, mississippi, south carolina, texas and virginia. talk to me about the case of beaumont because that was a case in which you had basically a very similar set of facts.
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justice department said no way. >> right. >> in december of 2012 is the perfect analogy. made a change from seven single member districts to two at large. >> sounds familiar. >> sounds similar. and doj determined that was going to have an impact. there's a concern about there being a discriminatory purpose. we see a similar thing in dallas, texas. i think -- this is not an unusual technique. the situation where the minority population is growing, you have districts and there's an attempt to say how do you stop that growth from impacting the outcome of the election. it's classic. >> so, what is the recourse now that section five isn't there, preclearance is gone, the vote happened on tuesday. the people who want to change,
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the mayor got his way. that's the change, i think the city's constitution essentially, the charter, so, what can people do? >> i think the resource is and i think there are people looking at whether or not there's a way to challenge in under section two of the voting rights act, the part of the act still there, that you can use to bring a lawsuit to say this action was purposely discriminatory. but those lawsuits take forever, chris, they take a long time, they're expensive. if the plaint i haves have such a case and if they prevail, we're looking at two years or many before we're going to have a resolution. that's two years before a counsel elected this system, which is an org bly discriminatory system. setting the policy for that town. >> two careers in which we have these two at large districts, that we may lose all hispanic representation in this town and who knows what could be past in the interim, which is the entire reason section five and four of
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preclearance was there. julie fernandez, thank you so much. >> coming up -- >> new jersey represents the last vestiges of the old boy machine politics that used to dominate states across the nation. and unless more people are willing to challenge it, new jersey's national reputation will suffer. >> that was democratic candidate for governor of new jersey, barbara buono. she has a lot to say about the race and the governor and her fellow democrats and will be my guest right here, next. i love c. but change is coming. all my students have the brand new surface. it has the new windows and comes with office, has a real keyboard, so they can do real work. they can use bing smartsearch to find anything in the world... or last night's assignment. and the battery lasts and lasts, so after school they can skype, play games, and my favorite...do homework. change is looking pretty good after all. ♪
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the democratic political bosses, some elected and some not, made a deal with this governor despite him representing everything they're supposed to be against. they didn't do it to help the state. they did it out of a desire to help themselves politically and financially. >> that was former democratic new jersey state senator, barbara buono, on tuesday, following her still senator -- good point. following her blowout loss to chris christie in a speech in which she also thanked her supporters. in his victory speech announcement for his 2016 presidential run, he suggested he's the one guy who's figured out how to bring people together in a time of political
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polarization. >> i know tonight that the spirited america angry with their dysfunctional government in washington -- looks to new jersey to say is what i think happening really happening? are people really coming together? are we really working african-americans and hispanics, suburbanites and city dwellers, farmers and teachers? are we really all working together? let me give the answer to everyone who is watching tonight, under this government, our first job is to get the job done and as long as i'm governor, that job will always, always be finished. >> there's a lot more to the story of how chris christie
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brought people together in new jersey and the governor wants to tell you and there is no one better to tell that tale than current state senator, barbara buono. thanks for being here. you use this word, betrayal, in your concession speech. it's a strong word. why? >> well, i just thought it would be important to be honest. i struck a positive note as well because i think this is an election first woman to run for governor of the state of new jersey in a democratic party, definitely a ground breaking event. and i wanted to make sure that all the young women and young men for that matter and minorities knew that it can be done, even in the face of unsurmountable odds. that said, the democratic party unfortunately cut doles with chris christie and we never really had a chance in terms of gaining the financial support and institutional support we needed. >> you were outfund raised, 6-1. the question, what do you mean by cut deals? i think the story, here's the
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story that the national media is saying about chris christie. in these polarized times, hugs president obama after sandy, in a obama state that went to democrats by 17 points. won by a whopping 30 points on tuesday night and is bringing people together. what about the bringing people together to people not understand? >> in new jersey, he hasn't brought people together. we have the highest unemployment in the region for the last four years. people are struggling. but what this governor has done, people's eyes glaze over when he tells jokes on late night tv and talks about sandy, sandy, sandy, and the fact of the matter so, you know, the democratic party bosses and krchris christie strk a deal. >> what's strike a deal mean? >> it can mean different things for different people. for those in south jersey, that meant chris christie wouldn't mount an offensive against their
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senators and assembly people in that district. it could mean different things in the northern end of the state depending on your political and business interests. i think the people of new jersey deserve someone to represent them and not someone's narrow political and business interests. >> so, there's a kind of nonaggression pact that's struck between members of your party in the state senate, george nor croft is one of them in south jersey, right? yes? >> yes. >> that basically, they're not going to go after christie because it's in their own interest to be able to work with him, to deliver whatever goods they need for their district. >> nobody's more enamored with chris christie than himself. you put a political boss many front of him and say this is what you need to do to get elected and you'll see him fold like a cheap suit. >> christie? >> yes. >> what do you mean by that? >> he said it himself when he was in boston a few months ago.
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he said if you want someone who stands for anything, then i'm not your guy because i'm in it to win it. hone honestly, i don't care he's running for president. it's how. >> when you look at washington, right, the thing everyone is talking about warning for are the days of transactional deal making politics. >> people, when people look at the shutdown, they say, if we had things like earmarks, if there are ways to have these transactional deals, things would work. >> there's a big difference between having a deal that benefits the people of new jersey or the people of the nation or any state and a deal that is solely to benefit the political or business interests of someone. that's the big difference. compromise and transactional politics are two very different things and have a very different impact on the people. >> what is work going to be like for you as a member of the senate caucus after saying the
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things you said, after being abandoneded and betrayed by your fellow democrats? >> i've always run against the bosses. back in 1994, i ran against the political boss' candidate and i won and then again when i ran in the senate, i won. i became the first woman majority leader, first woman budget chair because there were all these deals being made. i'm always going to be the person i am. i've been there and will continue to be there for the people of new jersey and that's it. >> thank you so much for your time. coming up, the story everyone is talking about. my guest will include a former nfl player who says fans demand total access, then complain in the same breath. sfa with us. cereal that's recommended by doctors? it's post shredded wheat. recommended by nine out of ten doctors to help reduce the risk of heart disease. post shredded wheat is made with only one ingredient: one hundred percent whole grain wheat, with no added sugar or salt. try adding fruit for more health benefits
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if you saw this happening, would you intervene and who sets the code of conduct in a locker room? show that person choosen and is the code of conduct condoned by the coaches? thanks to hard knocks, we can take a look inside a real nfl locker room. here's what was happening last year with the miami dolphins. >> you check your facebook lately? maybe you shouldn't use your [ bleep ] number for your ipad password, bud. 8484. >> i used it. >> weird. >> got him. it's a good guess. might want to check your facebook, bud. >> what's it say? [ bleep ]. i was going to put something up there rude, but then i saw the picture of your girlfriend and i felt bad. >> he seems, nice, right? charming facebook hacker, dolphins lineman, is at the center of a hazing scandal rocking the nfl this week.
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i'll be joined here in the studio by a former player who said this week you only get bullied in an nfl locker room if you allow it to happen.
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the national football league. it began last week when reports emerged that jonathan martin had left the team after a prank his teammates pulled on him in the cafeteria, a prank martin apparently did not find funny. reporting he got frustrated and smashed his tray on the floor and left the facility. initially, the story was that martin left the team because he needed quote, assistance for emotional issues. in the days since, new allegations have emerged saying he was the victim of bullying and hazing in the locker room and according to reports, the chief instigator was richie incognito. in 2003, he was suspended at nebraska. then kikted of assault, then dismissed from oregon's program after a week with the team then after a few years in the nfl in 2009, he was voted the league's dirtiest player in a poll of fellow players. fellow teammate cam -- remembers
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him as i'm quoting, no personality and locker room cancer who just wanted to fight everybody all the time. earlier this week, he jumped on twitter to challenge himself -- if you or any of the agents you sound off for have a problem with me, you know where to find me. which the reporter did by tweeting some of the messages incognito allegedly left, like hey, what's up, you half n word piece of expletive. on sunday, the dolphins announced incognito had been suspended. now, the nfl is investigating just yesterday. martin's camp released this statement. martin's toughness is not an issue. he endured harassment that went far beyond locker room hazing. he looks forward to getting back to football and will cooperate where the investigation. the scandal has ripped back the curtain to part of the football world we don't get to see.
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also happens to be the most successful form of entertainment in america today. joining me mike pes kai, emily, also author of a great book. sticks and stones, defeating the culture of bullying and rediscovering the power. this has blown up. it's kind of remarkable to me what a fire storm this has created. you see jonathan martin, who is just a massive human being, who does one of the most physically demanding, intimidating, strenuous jobs in america probably and you think, how could this guy be bullied. that's the core of it. >> right and it's the job of so many armchair quarterbacks. to them, it speaks to toughness and like this lost ideal of whatever their version of mas cue lenity is. this is why when it came out, you didn't need a lot of information. the first day when people were
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debating it, they didn't know about the death threats he got from incognito and some of the slurs. the debate was, how do you not stand up for yourself, not punch the other guy in the nose. that came from players, former players, the gm from this team. >> former players, ricky williams, who i look and respect. he's a really thoughtful guy. emily, as someone who wrote about and studied bullying, i'm really curious to hear your reaction to the kind of disbelief that is being expressed that someone of that size can be bullied. after this break. merch comes back, i'm not happy. use ups. they make returns easy. unhappy customer becomes happy customer. then, repeat customer. easy returns, i'm happy. repeat customers, i'm happy. sales go up, i'm happy. i ordered another pair. i'm happy. (both) i'm happy. i'm happy. happy. happy. happy. happy. happy happy. i love logistics.
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joining us now, a former player, now analyst for -- news.
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he's wearing a super bowl ring. it is massive. emily, i want to go to you on this. this bullying question. what was your reaction to someone who wrote a whole book on bullying to the reaction of so many people, how could this massive individual be bullied. >> jonathan martin is a big guy in a locker room with a lot of other big guys. he's the new player. richie incognito is the veteran in a leadership position and you can be socially excluded and made to feel harassed and terrible about yourself by other people. you can go through that kind of psychological torment and bullying, no matter how big you are. >> i think the psychological component of this is key, but roman, you've been tweeting what a lot of other players have said, which is look, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, i guess? >> i think gien this incident, there's different levels between what's a rookie responsibility, getting the donuts and those
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things and what richie incognito did to jonathan martin. at those cases, someone should have said hey, lay off this kid. i'm a man first, deal with it in the parking lot. in regular society, in bullying in the bigger picture, you can't deal with it that way, but talking about a football environment because i played football, that's how you deal with it. you deal with the locker room with locker room issues and unfortunately, this story's become so huge that you have ph.d.s and people in education and if this is the workplace, you wouldn't have to buy lunch for everybody, wouldn't be in hazing. unfortunately, this has come out, a lot of things i've seen throughout my career and college. >> what i think we need to do here is distinguish between a few different categories. so, there's hazing, hey, rookie, pick up my pads, kind of a jerk move, but that's okay, not the worst thing in the universe, then there's the rookie dinner, where we run up a $15,000 tab
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and you have to pay for it. that sucks, but it's not violent. then there's physical violence. this incognito guy seems to me, this is a former player who was clubbed in the face by a sock filled with coins that free agent broil had spent collecting from teammates. the shot shattered his eye socket and nearly cost him his eye, which now only provides him with partial vision. that's not hazing. that's assault. >> it is assault and it's awful, but in the football environment, we always tow that line between what's a passionate head coach and appropriate. what's motivation and getting in a guy's face and inappropriate. what's getting a rookie tougher, seeing what a guy is made of and what's a racist comment and i think richie incognito went too far. we've all acknowledged that.
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there's an unwritten rule, this hasn't been discussed this week. if you can't deal with the richie incognito, if you can't deal, what are you going to do on third and ten against jared allen? >> that is, i'm sorry, that's crap. >> why do these teams scrutinize these rookies when they come out of college? why does the general manager for the doll finuses ask ded bryant, was your mother a prostitute. >> here's my response. first of all, you're making me feel like, a, i've got to think the psychological make-up that allows you the stand tough and strong under conditions of third and ten and in these sort of relentless, sadistic games, but if they're not, then football is just a game of sadism and violence and horror that we all gaze upon and clap for. like if you're telling me there's not that much difference of playing this game and being hounded in a locker room, oh,
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football's even more messed up than i thought. >> but the fans want it. they want hard knocks. and when this happens, it's oh, i can't believe these guys play this way. it's football. it's not a fourth grade at recess. >> mike. -- >> it's not football. so many teams have come out and said that sort of behavior would never happen in our locker room and i think what's troubling, you're here saying rightly so, there's a fine line. this is way over the line, but you ask the dolphins, they're sticking up for incognito. they're saying, well, this is not the situation that you understand it and the rest of the league is kind of 50/50, but the dolphins all stick together. that shows me a sort of group mentality. >> that's my question for you, emily, which is i think everyone now says yeah, this was over the line. >> 100%. >> and we've heard the voice mails, i am threatening to kill you.
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you can't threaten to kill people or rape their loved ones. why don't people intervene even when they know it's wrong? >> sometimes, it's easier to side with the dominating bully and harder to side with the person in this case, who is accused of breaking the code by going public. i think this is a real test for the nfl. think about the message this is sending to high school kids and their coaches about the kind of team behavior we should be evaluating. if it's richie incognito who emerges from this as the one who has the defenders in the sports world, then what does that say about kids who are being hazed and harassed on their team and come forward and ask for help. >> do you think you would have said something? >> 100% because i said from the rookie responsibility to where it led, you say hey, lay off this kid. he's going to have to help us when he's a second round pick. let's try something else.

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